Wednesday, May 21, 2008

Hashgacha Prattit-- G-d Does The Scheduling

Mom in Israel has been writing a lot about the Jewish "group therapy," Megirot, -- More on Megeirot. She seems to be basing her "expose`" on an article which appeared in one of the Hebrew papers here.

I found what she said strange, not because I've ever gone to/done Megirot, but because the woman who leads it here in Shiloh is so totally and utterly different from the person described in the article. My neighbor could never have anything to do with something so negative.

Yes, I had to speak to her about it. I didn't mange to catch her after Tuesday afternoon T'hillim (Psalms.) But miraculously, that's Hashgacha Prattit-- G-d Does The Scheduling, this morning when I had to get to work at an hour when ther's no bus and rarely rides... yes, she came by.

Of course, I asked her about the article.
"But you know and agree that many things in newspapers arent true."

That statement is enough, but she also said that she herself had investigated by speaking to people much more veteran in the system than herself. Megirot have been going on for ten years. She learned it from someone who learned from the founder.

Also, it's clear to both of us that there are women who attend it who have serious emotional problems, certainly there have been some in the ten years the method exists. Those who reported the very bad things may just be projecting their own problematic personalities.

If you're interested in Megirot, and there are many participants who have found it extremely helpful, make sure the person who leads the group and the other participants are the type of people you feel safe with. That goes for any sort of therapy.

17 comments:

mother in israel said...

Not "seems to be." That is my main source. Several former participants wrote to me, but none of them had knowledge of the scandal.
The paper's account could be incorrect, but Rav Lior came out publicly against Sylvie. So it's hard to believe that there is nothing there.

Anonymous said...

Muse,
I am so very saddened to see people defaming a very wonderful lady who has devoted her life to helping women work on their middot and come closer to Hashem. The Mother In Israel blog incorrectly stated that megirot is a support system that gives women a "Jewish approach to housekeeping."

Obviously, as you mentioned, there are some women out there with problems who are getting some kind of satisaction out of blacklisting Sylvie and the megirot system. It's so true that a few rotten apples can ruin an entire basket of truly delicious apples.

I have been to Slvie's classes and I am sorry to say, people, that none of the things mentioned in that so-called "newspaper" by that so-called "investigative journalist" rings true. It sounds to me like some people out there don't want to take responsibility for their lives and find it much easier to blame someone else when they aren't getting what they want out of life. Then, along comes the "journalist" looking for something "juicy" to sell, and presto - you have this very unfortunate situation going on. It is causing people to spread false tales over the internet.

Megirot gives women tools to get rid of feelings of anger (which I myself am beginning to feel after reading the mother in israel blog!!), criticism, haughtiness, inadequacies, fear, worries etc. When you are filled up with these feelings, it is very hard to feel Hashem's presence in your life. When you are emptied out of the negativity, you make room for Hashem. Tranquility - even though your two-year old just dumped a jar of honey all over the new couch! Who wouldn't agree that is better than allowing anger to take control?!?

Another point, Sylvie, and the madricha whom I have been learning with for several years already, ALWAYS start with the premise that the Jewish woman is beloved and special in Hashem's eyes. There is no talk of being inadequate or no good. (Some people on the blog mistakenly believe that Sylvie tells women that they are not worthy??) Many women suffer from feeling sorry for themselves and megirot offers a way for Jewish women to shed those feelings and to feel honorable and worth it! Other women might have feelings of wanting to control everything and everyone around them and are always critical and angry. Imagine being free of that! It is all about love and acceptance of yourself and your fellow Jew.

Women who have studied and practiced the megirot system have found that not only do they grow closer in their relationship with Hashem, but that their children and husbands do too. Everyone benefits. And by the way, orderly drawers is only a side benefit from the work you do on your middot. It is not the goal of megirot!

Sorry, people, there is no "sexual impropriety" or "child abuse" or forcing anyone to do anything they don't want or any of those other negative claims made by that "journalist."

It is all wholesome goodness, based on the Torah. Ever read Mesillat Yesharim? It is a wonderful sefer that talks about HUMILITY, HONOR(yourself and every Jew), GENEROSITY (the generous heart gives freely), KINDNESS (the world stands on kindness), GRATITIDE (to Hashem), TRUST (you are under the wing of Hashem), ZRIZUT (enthusiasm to do the mitzvot),PATIENCE, TRUTH (is the seal of Hashem), GEVURAH (holding boundaries), TRANQUILITY (rising above the good and bad - nothing is worth disturbing my peace of mind),ORDER (each thing in its place!), and ZEHIRUT (awareness - listen to your inner G-dliness). That is what we are working on in megirot!

If anything,I sincerely hope this posting stirs some people to stop spreading false tales about megirot and Sylvie, and maybe they'll put to practice all of the above middot!! Remember, Truth is the seal of Hashem.

mother in israel said...

"She herself had investigated by speaking to people much more veteran in the system than herself. Megirot have been going on for ten years. She learned it from someone who learned from the founder."

How could she find out the truth, when she only spoke to people who are still involved? She needs to speak to people who have left or been asked to leave.

Batya said...

1- I've never done megirot, but I trust my neighbor, whom I do know well, lots better than any journalist. Remember, good news doesn't sell newspapers.

2- She checked with people who aren't her trainers.

3- I think that Rav Lior's name has been linked to the anti-anti-Moetzet Yesha posters, even though it is said that he was sorry his name was used. Check the comments here: Shiloh Musings: "Battling" On The Roads. There may be a problem on the Rabbi's staff.

YMedad said...

I came across this extract:

...the "support group" that is based on prayer while organizing your closets. Since I've lived in the South for a while, I have Christian friends and neighbors so I have some familiarity with stuff that is going on in the Evangelical churches. It actually seeps into the culture as a whole and these groups have really gotten into social programs and
lots of self help, pop psych stuff. In American culture as a whole, not just the Christian sector, there has been a real targeting of women. We apparently are victims just by virtue of having been born. Anyway, this situation raised red flags all over and I can't give you a proper citation right now but I KNOW I heard of this idea coming out of the church. It was a christian woman who came up with it for
coping with her newly revised status of being a stay at home mom. She would "talk" with the "J-man" while she went about her chores and received "insights" which she felt she just had to share (as well as make a tidy sum with her book and speaking tours). I can't say this woman in
Israel is a "missionary" but didn't I hear one of you say that she tells people she has a "secret" that will change lives? That is pure evangelical code for the "J-man." Just accept "him" and everything will be fine. there tends to be a strong sense however that new "believers" need strong "shepherding" to stay the course. That's where the cultishness comes in. And you were right about the characteristics
of that. The "leader" tells you that they know what is best for your life. Often they will say something like "G-d told/showed me that you have to..." and if you don't, then you aren't sincere. In openly christian/messianic circles you're told "you aren't really 'saved' and you're going to h-ll." You are punished by being shunned and not being allowed to have friends within the group, if you are even allowed to still attend, until you "repent." In Israel, because the "messianic" believers don't even have the example of the kinder side
of christian life, they tend to be especially strict and harsh with
their followers.
I can't say this woman who leads the Israel group is a messianic and a missionary but I wouldn't doubt it for a second.

Wow.

Anonymous said...

OY!!! talk about anything goes and anyone can say whatever - the person who wrote the extract admitted she doesn't know Sylvia at all, yet she can indeed fit her nicely into the pigeon hole she's experienced in the States and come to those wild conclusions.

Muse, your neighbor did do justice, and I'm grateful for her words. But what I found was that with every lesson we learned so much and could hardly be captured in just a few paragraphs.

All I'm learning from this is the danger of the written word - and our Jewish wisdom to pursue Justice is too eaily twisted to each person interpreting and having the power to influence others.

another basic principle in megirot was to be totally honest to ourself - nowhere did we learn to blindly follow others.

And another principle I work hard on is only answer for yourself - we cannot possibly know what life, challenges, visions are in another person, so why waste time trying to figure other people out. It's enough to just deal with our own lives. In fact, if everyone did work more on their own lives, how much better this world might be.

And this I hope will be my last post on the subject, as another lesson learned in megirot is to separate what is needed and what is not needed, and trying to defend all the excellent learnings I've gotten just seems a waste of time, looks like people want to believe whatever they want to believe. Great pity.

Klara

Batya said...

Klara, you've got it right.

Honestly, I can't believe how some of the very same people who know so well how the press lie and distort can so blithly believe nasty things about others, just because they read it in the paper.

I trust this neighbor of mine, who is the very same one I remember 27 years ago, when we came for a Shabbat in Shiloh, how calmly she had accepted the difficult lack of water, and it wasn't even Shabbat yet. If she finds the Megirot good, that's definitely good enough for me.

I think this whole business, starting with the Makor Rishon "expose`" is a classic lesson about the dangers of lashon haraa.

YMedad said...

I see here that the lines of the discussion are: (a) is Megirot a good program? or is it not? (b) is the leader of the program a moral person or not? (c) if, perhaps, she is less-than-moral, does that negate the program? or does it simply mean that one should be more circumspect exactly what do you do if you wish to be involved in the program?

Most newspaper reports are less truthful than the truth but they do serv a pruspose of warning and alerting and causing one to think and to search for better information. Take, for example, Olmert. Most of us really don't 'know' if he steals or takes bribes but, on the other hand, because we do not like his political agenda, many would tend to believe than he is criminal. And in Olmert's case, a combination of factors - pressure from those who oppose his policies to keep digging for info and a newspaper report of over a yar ago dafka in Haaretz has brought the police to almost filing a charge sheet.

So, to return to my point, the lady I quoted from felt that the Megirot situation could develop into a parallel phenomenon she has witnessed. Is it exactly the same here? Are all women involved seeking to be "spiritual wives" or to dominate other women? I don't know. But at least I am now more aware of a possibel disturbing situation.

Batya said...

I'm not the type to go to Megirot, but I do learn from others. And I don't trust the press.

Anonymous said...

Wow! It's clear to me how dangerous these blogs are. It is a great opportunity to stand up on your soapbox and criticize and cast judgement on others without really knowing what is going on. By virtue of a newspaper article (and you all know how "honest" newspapers are - Makor Rishon included) people actually feel that they are doing a service to humanity by posting their loshon hara. It is so easy to press "SEND" and committ chilul Hashem. The yetzer hara plays very nasty tricks on people and can convince you that "It's really not loshon hara because we are trying to expose this wicked woman and prevent her from exploiting all those dysfunctional housewives."
Some people also get a perverse pleasure out of putting other people down. Makes them puff out their chests and feel good about themselves.
As long as a person keeps trying to fix other people, he is avoiding his real tafkid, which is doing tikun on himself. That's why it feels so good to criticize other people.

Batya said...

a, I think this is going too far, off course. Especially, since you haven't even signed your name, I wonder if I should keep the comment up.
I really try to keep the insults out. I'm uncomfortable with parts of your comment.

I just request that any other comments on the subject be focused on the issue, added facts, not guesses nor accusations. And that includes being careful of what you say about others, including bloggers.

mother in israel said...

I think we need to be skeptical, including of newspapers. But I feel that the danger is greater when we are quick to dismiss the idea that these things could happen in our community. It has happened many times: Lanner, Winiarz, Kolko, and others were defended by influential rabbis. While people sorted out what to believe, more victims suffered.

The fact that Makor Rishon printed Sylvie's name shows that the paper felt that were was substance behind the allegations. Even though I can't judge the veracity of the story, it's important that it be publicized and discussed.

I don't believe that Sylvie is a missionary. But ymedad's excerpt highlights the fact that the tactics described in the MR article ring true. They have been used before by cult leaders and missionaries.

Seemingly nice, religious people *can* be involved in emotional manipulation and physical abuse. Seemingly nice, religious people can also be involved in covering up facts.

Batya said...

One has to be careful with any sort of therapy. The theory can be good but the therapist not or the opposite.

Today, after 10 years, so many people are involved with and have been involved with Megirot that two group leaders can be extreme opposites. And many of today's group leaders may be much better than Sylvia.

I thinks we've "milked" this topic enough. If anyone is interested in a group (Hebrew) email me and I'll give you my neighbor's number.

mother in israel said...

"I thinks we've "milked" this topic enough."

I agree!

Anonymous said...

Great Loshon Horah. Great Motzei shem Rah!...Congratulations on spreading lies about people, their families, their children, all on the hearsey of others who hold grudges and have ulterier motives.
I am sorry to break up your motzei shem rah party. I have read Shmirot Haloshon about 14 times in detail, including in depth, and you are no different than any other group of Ballei loshon horah, or even worse, Motzei Shem Rah, which is considered by the Rambam to be equal to the severity of the 3 major sins of, avodah zorah, murder, and arios.
My Chardei wife has been involved in megeriot for 4 years. It has absolutely changed her life and mine. She couldn't take care of our household of 8. I was washing dishes. I was doing alot of the cooking and I almost couldn't take anymore the non stop arguments between me and my wife. It was gehinnom. when I saw my wife changing, little by little, each month it was amazing. She became a Yiddeshe mother. No more anger. Her strength came back, and she does EVERYTHING in the house. She is a real kiddush hashem and speaks very nicely to the children, and me her husband. ....what a cult.!!!
I saw her each day doing megirot. what did she do? she went through the shelves and drawers in the house "that she had made", and was able to find many many things that she didn't need. When you ask yourself a real question...why am i holding on to things I no longer use etc, you just may get to know yourself. The idea is to free ourselves from all of our negative thoughts, and limitations. And, each time she did this, she did it with a prayer. "Anah Hashem.....please help me with this middah or that middah." Everyday she was saying over and over again ..Ana Hasem, (what a cult). It doesn't surprise me that in our velt today, saying "anah Hashem is a cult".
Of course in the time of the Bal Shem Tov, the vilna goan and many others called him an epikores. In fact many Litveshe Rabbanim were very very against the Chassidic Admorim and put those in cherem who belonged to these "cults" as well.
So, when I saw one day an article in the hamodia-English, filled with Motzei Shem Rah, with the name of this Rav and that Rav, that a new cult has been discovered..called megirot, I was very very disappointed. Why? I knew that these Rabbanim did not know anything about megirot and certainly didn't go to a class, but they have their askanim who look around for problems and come back and report on things they see as problems. The rabbanim completely rely upon these askanim and that is it.
Now, I have been learning in known Yeshivot for many years, and am considered a respectful Chareidi family. I am sorry, but I have seen for years with "my own ears and eyes," (a prerequisite of shmirot Haloshon), and I know that saying "Anah Hashem", (something that I myself should be saying more often,) and clearing out drawers, is in NO WAY whatsoever a cult or avoda zorah. I was ver dis heartened to see how low in this long golus we have sunk, to use such big names of Rabbanim and to say in their names "CULT", avodah zorah", and if they allowed their names to be used this way, then I am even more dis heartened.
I myself have spoken to Sylvia for many many hours on the phone, and I never heard once a word of Kefirah, or avodah zorah etc. ANd I did keep my ears open to be sure. She is a Yirei Shemayim, and as is her derech, she will never respond to any criticism since she knows it is all from Hashem and for her to grow.
I went to Harav Moshe Halbershtam, zt"l, with my wife, and he himself said, "What, clearing out your drawers is avodah zorah"?? He did not forbid my wife to do it, we in fact we asked why they came out with their P'sak, (i.e the aidah Hacharadit) against it. The answer... "WE don't want our Chareidishe women mixing with the mizrachi type" This was the answer from Harav Shternbuch who I know personally.(So, if this is the reason, then say so,,, but to call it and everyone involved in it cult members and ovdei avoda zorah?)
It should be known that the Chasidishe admorim did not assur it, Belz, and one very well know Tdadik type admore (I will not mention his name on the internet) Has 2 of his daughters still doing it, (with a Chareidi counselor).
The one who wrote the artcile above (Erlich), I can promise you she is not very "Erlich" at all. She with out any permssion went into someone's private home, (not a public building) with the direct intention to defame someone. I promise that the house owner would not have agreed, (g'neives daas). She is a friend of another mizrachi women who had a grudge against sylvia for not allowing her to continue with the shiurim.they planned this set up, and there you have it, lies about sex, money etc.
I can tell you, that my wife has spent hundreds of hours on the phone with Sylvia over the years, and she was never charged one shekel!!!!! I myself have spoken to her on the phone, and she never asked for money. The one's who pay are the one's who are able to. She does not care about money. I am saying because I know first hand.
Just like when someone comes to a dyan for a judgment, can the dyan hear the diyyun if he has personal gripe against the person? this Erlich is no better.
I know of another chareidishe women from Meah Shearim, (I met her personally), and she begged Rav Halbershtam to allow her to continue with this "CULT", and he did. (can you imagine a rav in the aida allowing a frum women to continue going to cult meetings.?
Isn't it disheartning that all of us poor nebech, chareidim with yeshiva and bais yaakov backgrounds, all of that Torah education...we can't know what a cult is..avodah zora, etc.
And all of those lies about sex, taking things out of context to do the final asassination.
If I had lived 250 years ago, I would have chosen to be in cherem and follow the Baal Shem tovs cult, and of cours Rabbi Nachman's. I also would have followed the Ramchal's cult as well, (as they were all called in those days). Well, now I have a real wife, she cooks she cleans, she davens, she honors me and respects me, and she honors herself as well. This is another cult that I will stay in.
Let it be known, not ever shiur is for everyone, not every shul is for everyone, and not every neighborhood is for everyone....but the Emmes must be spoken!
I swear that all of the above I know personally, and not hearsay. All is true and factual.
yehuda | 06.12.08 - 7:33 pm | #

Batya said...

Hodot l'Yehuda,
Really. Thanks for sharing with us. Your comments are very valuable.

Anonymous said...

Sobebody wrote:
>> Ever read Mesillat Yesharim?
>> It is a wonderful sefer that
>> talks about [...]

I think it might have some utility to put that long list in the right order, as given by Rabbi Pinchas ben Yair [translated by Rav Aryeh Kaplan z"l]:
Torah leads to Watchfulness;
Watchfulness leads to Zeal;
Zeal leads to Cleanliness;
Cleanliness leads to Separation;
Separation leads to Purity;
Purity leads to Saintliness;
Saintliness leads to Humility;
Humility leads to Fear of Sin;
Fear of Sin leads to Holiness;
Holiness leads to the Holy Spirit,
and the Holy Spirit leads to the Revival of the Dead."